What did Roy say about my 10 listed points? He felt compelled to try to recover from the previous debate even though he was given FIVE tries. Now he diverts to a SIXTH affirmative so you will forget that THIS is the proposition of THIS debate:

The resurrection from mortal to immortality did not happen in the 1st century.

The reader can see that Roy avoided all attempt to answer the following TEN points that were enumerated in my first affirmative as follows:

1. The Graves Are Not Empty. All the graves testify to the fact that the resurrection from mortality to immortality did not take place in the first century. All who are in their graves would come forth (John 5:28-29) when Jesus says the word that makes that happen. Now, unjust people coming out of their graves to condemnation and righteous people coming out of their graves to everlasting life would be literal resurrections like Lazarus (John 11:41-44), Jesus’ (John 20:2,9), and those that arose after Jesus’ resurrection ( Matt.27:52,53). ‘The GRAVES” (plural) is not Hades (singular). Jesus said they would come out of the tombs, sepulchers, graves. They should have all been empty in AD 70, but they were not.

2. Church Already Spiritually Raised. The church was already “raised” out of spiritual death (Rom.6:3-6), and “raised up together to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ” (Eph.2:1-7) long before AD 70. Since Roy does not believe in mortal bodies raised to immortality, then he is positing that the already spiritually raised church was going to be spiritually raised again in AD 70. But, since the “unjust” would also be raised and Roy does not believe in a bodily resurrection, then the unjust would have to be spiritually raised (saved) in AD 70. Thus, universalism!

3. RAISED OR CHANGED AT SAME MOMENT. The raising will happen for those who physically die, not those who spiritually die (sin without obtaining forgiveness), and those who do not physically die will be “changed” (1 Cor.15:51-52). It will all happen at the same moment. The dead were not raised, and the living were not changed to immortal and incorruptible in AD 70. Roy said that the resurrection is posited “before all of the Corinthians would die (1 Cor.15:51).” This is editorially “we” humans. Roy’s argument means that the change in the twinkling of the eye DID take place in AD 70 and that there is NO future hope of anyone else being “changed” to immortal. Whatever was going to happen as far as becoming immortal happened in AD 70, according to Roy. THAT “moment” is gone!

4. ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED? If they were already spiritually alive and then were “changed” to spiritually incorruptible, then that would mean that they could no longer die spiritually after THAT “moment” in AD 70. Now, if no Christian could ever be spiritually corrupted and die spiritually, then Roy will have to teach the doctrine of “Once-saved-always-saved” came into reality in AD 70. Of course, we understand why Roy totally avoided this point.

5. NO MARRYING OR DYING. Jesus said that in the resurrection there will be no marrying or dying any more. Luke 20:34-35

Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. NKJV

1. Notice that you don’t marry in the age of the resurrection.

2. We marry now and have been marrying and giving in marriage before and after AD 70.

3. Therefore, AD 70 is not the age of the resurrection from the dead.

Now, Roy did attempt to say a word about this passage. He said “this age” is the age of Judaism, and “THAT AGE” would have to be the age of Christianity post AD 70. Well, no! “This age” is the age of mortality encompassing all mortal ages of humanity, and THAT AGE is the age where we cannot die and don’t marry because we are like the angels. Every time Roy sees “age” he sees the time before AD 70 and the time after AD 70, like it can’t speak of anything else. Everything is not about AD 70. Much is about mortal time on earth, and the age to come when we are not mortals on earth. Roy will have to do better than this! Notice that we are staying with Jesus’ exact words, while Roy struggles to explain the sense in which we are not marrying in this Christian age and how we are not dying in this Christian age and how we are like the angels on both points. Talk about “reconstructing the text!”

6. OUR MORTAL BODIES. Life will be given to “our mortal bodies” (Rom.8:11). This is about the future hope of “redemption of our body” (v.23-24). We will have our mortal bodies redeemed or cashed in for an “immortal body” that does not marry or die because we are like the angels. The only thing Roy said about these verses in Romans is that this promise “belonged to Israel after the flesh.” The adoption in Rom.9:4 speaks to Israel’s PAST adoption as God’s people. Rom.8:11,23 speak of a FUTURE thing for which the faithful were hoping. So, Roy is trying to confuse WHAT adoption. Romans 8:11,23 is about a future adoption of a new immortal body when we cash in (redeem) the mortal body.

7. THE END OF MORTALITY. The resurrection will happen at “the last day” (John 6:39,44,54; 11:24; 1 Cor.15:23f). That will be the end of mortality. Death will not happen anymore. But since death is still happening (both spiritual death and physical death), then the last day of mortality is not the same event as the last day of the Judaic Temple system. Roy avoided this altogether! Surprised?

8. WHERE IS HOPE POST AD 70? All that was hoped for was supposedly realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Nothing after that was promised to people who lived beyond that dreadful year. Hope for redemption of body (Rom.8:11,23) was supposedly “realized” in AD 70. Hope that is seen (realized) is no longer hope (v.24). Watch This!

1) Hope was realized in AD 70 and no hope is offered to people after that change to immortality took place.

2) Roy contends that that “moment” of “change” to immortality happened in AD 70 (1 Cor.15:52-58).

3) Thus, there will not be hope for ANOTHER moment of change to immortality. It all happened in THAT “moment” in THAT “twinkling of an eye” in THAT “coming” of the Lord. Where is a promise of immortality for us?

Roy says that Paul’s resurrection-hope was “the hope of Israel” (Acts 28:20). Well, Paul tells us what his hope was in Romans 8:11,23-24. It was the hope of redeeming this mortal body for the immortal body God had promised. The tent he was dwelling in would be cashed in for a better, enduring tent (2 Cor.5:1ff). He didn’t rise and get it in AD 70. But He will get it on “the last day” (John 6:39,44,54; 11:24; 1 Cor.15:23f).

If the people who were promised heaven got their promise of heaven and immortality in AD 70, then where is a promise for people who remained mortal AFTER AD 70? Why is anyone mortal at all after AD 70?

9. POST FALL OF HARLOT IN AD 70. Revelation 17-20 posits the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 in Chapters 17-18. The beast (Rome) did not fall in AD 70 along with Jerusalem. The beast lasted a while longer. The beast stopped persecuting God’s people in the 300s. Thus, the beast did not fall in AD 70, but many years later. Rev.19 presents the fall of the beast. Chapter 20 presents the binding of Satan (the dragon) that gave the beast its power. But this binding was for a LONG time after AD 70. Satan is bound for 1000 years (a symbol of a LONG time). The ‘last enemy” is death (1 Cor.15:23ff), but death and hades are not cast into the lake of fire until a long time after AD 70. But death was not destroyed, hades was not destroyed, and Satan was not cast into the lake of fire in AD 70, but many years after AD 70. Therefore, the resurrection, where death is no longer present, where immortality replaces mortality, is predicted to be in the future, a long way out from AD 70 and the first century. Roy has death, Hades, and Satan and his angels ALL GONE in AD 70, not over a 1000 years afterwards. Amazing!

10. SEEING HIM AS HE IS AND BECOMING LIKE HIM. When Jesus comes, the last enemy, death, will be destroyed and we become immortal so that death cannot affect us again (Luke 20:34,35). We will BE LIKE HIM (immortal) so that we cannot die (1 John 3:1-2). No one became LIKE HIM in AD 70, and no one was raised from the dead to become immortal and incorruptible. None of the living were “changed” at that moment to be immortal and incorruptible. Watch!

1) John said we will become like Him because we will SEE HIM AS HE IS.

2) No one saw Jesus “as He IS” in AD 70 and became like Him.

3) Therefore, seeing Him as He is and becoming like Him is long AFTER AD 70, after the fall of Rome, after the 1000 years binding of Satan, after the release for a while, and at the time when Satan, death, and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.

That was all future to the fall of the harlot (Jerusalem) in AD 70, and therefore my proposition is proven true.

Questions for Roy:

1) In what way were “the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15) raised in AD 70?

Roy said: “When the devil was cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10; Mat.25:41,46) …

(TB: Notice that this is AFTER the 1000 years and release for a while, thus long AFTER the fall of the harlot in AD 70),

…and heaven and earth fled away (Rev.20:11; Mat.24:35; Heb.1:10-11), hades gave up the dead (Rev.20:12-14) and the righteous/just inherited the kingdom (Mat.25:34; 1Pet.1:4-5; Luk.13:28-29) while the wicked/unjust were cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mat.25:41; Rev.20:15).

(TB: All of that was long AFTER the fall of the harlot in AD 70. So, if all the unjust of all time were cast into the lake of fire in AD 70, then what passage speaks of what will happen to the unjust who live AFTER AD 70? What passage addresses what will happen to the righteous who live AFTER AD 70?

2) If all Christians became immortal (unable to die) and incorruptible (unable to be tainted and spoiled) (1 Cor.15:52-54) in AD 70, where did they go at that point? -Roy’s answer: “Implausible.”

(TB: WHY is it “implausible?” They either remained on the earth in IMMORTAL state or they went to heaven and moved off the planet in AD 70. Why did they not know they were immortal, and why did they die during and after AD 70?)

3) If they went to heaven, why is there no mention of large portions of the population suddenly missing? -Roy’s answer: “Non sequitur.”

(TB: It does have a bearing! If the CHANGE from mortal to immortal took place in AD 70, they either stayed permanently on earth and we can see them, or they left the earth at that moment so that large portions of the population went missing from the earth in AD 70. Roy needs to face the question and answer it!)

4) What are some scriptures that give you hope of becoming immortal and going to heaven? -Roy answered, “Implausibe.”

(TB: What? He has NO HOPE of becoming immortal and going to heaven? This idea is “implausible” to Roy! Amazing! What a hopeless doctrine!)

The Fourth Kingdom Fell in AD 70?

Roy said that I applied Dan.2:44 to “physical Rome.” Where? Did the Roman Beast fall in AD 70? Yes or no? No matter what city physically held the beastly nature, when did the 4^th empire fall? Roy says that they were supposed to fall “TOGETHER (Dan.2:35).” Well, if “together” means at the very same MOMENT in time, then the Rock “filled the whole earth” at AD 70, not before, and not over time. The falling of those kingdoms “together” means only that the effect of the Rock (Jesus) brought down these world powers (each part integrated into the other until the Roman, and then they all fall together in the accumulative effect of Christ. There is nothing to suggest it all happened instantaneously in AD 70. This is Roy “reconstructing the text” to make it fit his hobby-horse doctrine of hopelessness.

He argues that I “blundered” and have Jesus “using the Roman armies to fight against God.” How ridiculous! Jesus, as king of kings, was using the Roman armies to fight against perverse Judaism, and as God used the Babylonians before and then turned His wrath against the Babylonians, so He used the Romans against evil Judaism, and then took down the Roman beast a while afterwards. The Romans were evil in fighting against the church, and the Lord vindicated His servants from the evil Roman oppression. Roy obviously does not know how and why God raises up and brings down powers of human kingdoms, but he sure is trying hard to invent some “blunder” in my acknowledgment of these facts.

Resurrection of the Just and Unjust

Roy has the just and unjust going to heaven and hell in AD 70. So, what passage tells us anything about what happens to us after death? He claims that Dan.12:1-4 put the resurrection of the just and unjust as happening at the moment of deliverance from the Romans.

Dan 12:1-3

1 And at that time your people shall be delivered,

Every one who is found written in the book.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,

Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 Those who are wise shall shine

Like the brightness of the firmament,

And those who turn many to righteousness

Like the stars forever and ever. NKJV

Telling the final outcome of the people delivered does not say WHEN the resurrection takes place. It just establishes THAT the delivered will also have a great resurrection future. The three Hebrews of Daniel 3 knew that they would be “delivered” from Nebuchadnezzar whether in life or by death. They considered the short range picture and the long range picture. That is what is pictured here in Daniel 12. A period of tribulation, the faithful delivered, the fallen-into-sleep-of-death delivered with a promise of future resurrection.

Who is “delivered” is based upon whether they are written in the book. THAT they will be raised to everlasting life is the hope, and that had nothing to do with AD 70. Roy just reads it into (eisegesis) the text.

Reconstructing the Text?

When I said regarding Luke 21:22 that it means “all things written about the fall of Jerusalem,” Roy accused me of “reconstructing the text” and inserting those words “about the fall of Jerusalem.” Well, no! If so, Roy reconstructs “all things were fulfilled” (John 19:28) by inserting “pertaining to the death of Jesus.” Does Roy reconstruct the text or does he teach that “all things,” including the destruction of Jerusalem, were fulfilled when Jesus went to Jerusalem in AD 33? (Luke 18:31). I’m pretty tired of hearing Roy continually accuse me of “reconstructing the text” when he does the same kind of thing. Get the log out of your eye, Roy! Stop the “reconstructing the text” nonsense!

Kinds of Comings

Roy says that the FATHER did all the “coming” on Jerusalem, Egypt, Babylon, etc. in judgment, and that Jesus never came before in a judgment until AD 70. He misused John 5:19-22 to support his contention. Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh). Jesus is the “I AM” (John 8:58). Heb.1:10-12 refers to Jesus as LORD and that is from Psalm 102:22 which is the word “Yahweh” or Jehovah. Thus, Jesus is the LORD of the Old Testament references, and He “rode on the clouds” of Judgement on Egypt (Isa.19:1,4) as “the Lord of Hosts”. That is the word for “Sabaoth” in James 5:4. HE was “coming” (v.7). Thus, the SAME Lord of Hosts that CAME upon Egypt, Babylon, Jerusalem before, is the SAME Lord of Hosts who would come in THAT way again upon Jerusalem and in the personal way at His SECOND coming. There were those KIND of comings in judgment on cities and nations that were numerous visitations of wrath. But there are only TWO of the personal KIND (Heb.9:28). His first of this kind was when He came personally to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sins. His SECOND time will be personal and visible. The Lord Himself will descend as He ascended (Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thess.4:14-18) and “we WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS.” That will be the SECOND visible and personal coming. Roy admits that Jesus did not come in a personal and visible way comparable to His FIRST coming in AD 70. The truth is that Jesus was/is Yahweh/Jehovah, the Lord of Hosts, has always “come on clouds” of judgments on cities and nations. Never were those personal and visible, and there are only TWO of the personal and visible comings.

Resurrection to immortality will be clear, unmistakable, and visible, and no one will be marrying or dying on that last day forevermore. Let us hope that Roy will do his job and take up answering each of my affirmative points instead of going for his own SEVENTH affirmative.