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MY SUMMATION
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BENTON'S FIRST AFFIRMATIVE

2nd Proposition:

The resurrection from mortal to immortality did not happen in the 1st century.

Terry Benton Affirms.

Roy Runyon denies.

Definition of Proposition

By “resurrection” I mean a raising from a state of deadness. Lazarus was in a state of deadness (John 11:12,13,24,38,39,41,43,44). He was not spiritually dead. He was physically dead. Death means the spirit has separated from the body (James 2:26). Jesus raised him from the dead, joining the spirit and body back together. That was a resurrection. Jesus was raised from the dead (1 Cor.15:1-6). He was in a state of deadness for three days, and then was raised to never die again. Thus, Jesus was raised from a mortal state of deadness, to an immortal state. We will be raised, but not to a mortal state where we can die again. We will be raised to a state of immortality (1 Cor.15:22-58) like Jesus.

By “mortal” I mean in a state that will eventually die. We live in that state now, and that state never ended in AD 70.

By “immortal” I mean in a state that cannot die. That state was not entered by the dead or the living in AD 70.

By “did not happen in the 1st century” I mean that the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) were not raised in AD 70 or anytime else in the first century, and nobody was raised to a state where they were immortal, unable to die.

Proof of Proposition

  1. The Graves Are Not Empty. All the graves testify to the fact that the resurrection from mortal to immortality did not take place in the first century. All who are in their graves would come forth (John 5:28-29) when Jesus says the word that makes that happen. Paul and Peter were killed before AD 70 and did not rise, become immortal, and are not walking around on this “forever” world as Roy would claim. Nobody in the first century thought that Paul and Peter were raised and became immortal in the first century. This idea is relatively new and is based upon a false premise that we will expose further in this debate.

  1. Church Already Spiritually Raised. The church was already “raised to walk in newness of life” (Rom.6:3-6), and “raised up together to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ” (Eph.2:1-7) long before AD 70. So, spiritually the church is already raised, but we each have a body, and each body is mortal, subject to death and decay. It is appointed for us to die once (Heb.9:27). But that is not the end of the story for us. Our body may be planted at death (1 Cor.15:37,42), but it will be raised with an incorruptible body. We plant a corruptible, mortal body, and we are raised an incorruptible, immortal body. We have borne the image of the man of dust (v.49), but we shall bear the image of the heavenly Man (Jesus).

  1. RAISED OR CHANGED AT SAME MOMENT. The raising will happen for those who physically die, not those who spiritually die (sin without obtaining forgiveness), and those who do not physically die will be “changed” (V.51-52). It will all happen at the same moment. The dead were not raised, and the living were not changed to immortal and incorruptible in AD 70. That is self-evident. Anyone who says otherwise is not in touch with reality. “This corruptible” refers to this corruptible body of flesh (v.53). This is what will be either raised incorruptible or if alive when Jesus comes will be changed to incorruptible and immortal “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” If this happened in the first century, then there should be NO mortals walking around since AD 70. Mortals are walking around and no IMMORTALS are walking around. Therefore, the resurrection and change to immortality did not happen in AD 70.

  2. ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED? All will be changed at the same moment (v.51,52). “Sleep” is associated with physical death with hope of rising again. Since all will not sleep (die a bodily, mortal death), but all will be changed to immortal, then this discussion is not about some in the church dying spiritually and some living, and then all getting a resurrection OR change to immortality in AD 70. The brethren at Corinth were not dead spiritually, and then came to spiritual life in AD 70. They did not die spiritually and then get raised spiritually and were then made “incorruptible” and “immortal” in AD 70. The spiritually alive did not undergo a “change” from “alive” spiritually to Incorruptible in AD 70. If they were already spiritually alive and then were “changed” to spiritually incorruptible, then that would mean that they could no longer die spiritually since AD 70. Now, if no Christian could ever be spiritually corrupted and die spiritually, then Roy will have to teach the doctrine of “Once-saved-always-saved” came into reality since AD 70. There is no need to debate with me or anyone, since no Christian can be spiritually corrupted. We are and have been immortal (spiritually) ever since Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

  1. NO MARRYING OR DYING. Jesus said that in the resurrection there will be no marrying or dying any more. Luke 20:34-35

Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. NKJV

Notice that you don’t marry in the age of the resurrection. We marry now and have been marrying and giving in marriage before and after AD 70. Therefore, AD 70 is not the age of the resurrection from the dead. Further, people have been dying before, during, and after AD 70. Therefore, AD 70 is not the age of the resurrection. Jesus could not have been any clearer! If you marry, give away a daughter in marriage, and if you can die, that is all the proof you need that the resurrection age has not yet come. We die because we are still “mortal.” Mortal people can and will die unless the Lord comes first. Until He comes, we are mortal and can marry and die. When He comes the mortal dead will be raised immortal, and the mortal living will be changed to incorruptible and immortal. Thus, my proposition is true. It harmonizes with all that the scriptures say, and it fits the reality we behold with our eyes, experience, and common sense. To say that we are in the resurrection age where marrying does not take place and where dying does not take place, is to reveal a blatant dishonesty or a mental and spiritual blindness that keeps one from being in touch with reality. Some of the cults have been known to work their deception so effectively on members that they lose touch with reality. If you can still see the reality that marriage is taking place and people still die, then don’t let people like Roy cause you to lose touch with that reality. It is not the age of the resurrection.

  1. OUR MORTAL BODIES. Life will be given to “our mortal bodies” (Rom.8:11). This is not talking about the one spiritual body of Christ, to which spiritual life had already been given. This is about the future hope of “redemption of our body” (v.23-24). We will have our mortal bodies redeemed or cashed in for our “immortal body” that does not marry or die.

  1. THE END OF MORTALITY. The resurrection will happen at “the last day” (John 6:39,44,54; 11:24; 1 Cor.15:23f). That will be the end of mortality. Death will not happen anymore. But since death is still happening (both spiritual death and physical death), then the last day of mortality is not the same event as the last day of the Judaic Temple system. The last day of the temple system in Jerusalem ended only the Jewish temple system. It had nothing to do with ending mortality. It only DEMONSTRATED that still mortality was continuing forward. The deaths so evident in AD 70, the death of massive amounts of Jews, demonstrated that AD 70 was NOT the day of resurrection to being incorruptible and immortal. It was only the last day of that evil temple system and the people that promoted it above the will of God. It said loudly by implication that this day is NOT the last day of mortality. It is a day to continue to mourn mortality, and long for the last day of mortality. The last days of Jerusalem was a demonstration that mankind had not yet entered the time of resurrection when marriage and death would happen no more. To confuse the last day of Jerusalem, a day of death and despair, with the day of resurrection to immortality is to get tangled in a deception of hopelessness. If the destruction of Jerusalem was resurrection to immortality, and that is all the resurrection ever promised, then where is hope?

  2. WHERE IS HOPE POST AD 70? All that was hoped for was supposedly realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Nothing after that was promised to people who lived beyond that dreadful year. Hope for redemption of body (Rom.8:11,23) was supposedly “realized” in AD 70. Hope that is seen (realized) is no longer hope (v.24). So, hope was realized in AD 70 and no hope is offered to people after that change to immortality took place. Roy contends that that “moment” of “change” to immortality happened in AD 70 (1 Cor.15:52-58). Thus, there will not be hope for ANOTHER moment of change to immortality. It all happened in THAT “moment” in THAT “twinkling of an eye” in THAT “coming” of the Lord. See Point 3 above. Where is a promise of immortality for us?

If the people who were promised heaven got their promise of heaven and immortality in AD 70, then where is a promise for people who remained mortal AFTER AD 70? Where is the promise of heaven for anyone after AD 70? If promise of heaven was “the age to come” where marriage and death no longer occur, then why are we not there? If it was “realized” (Realized Eschatology) for the first century believers, why are there people now who marry and die? Where is any hope of immortality offered to people AFTER it was “realized” in AD 70? The fact is that the age to come in which mortality is swapped in a “moment” for “immortality” is still in the future. All passages that offered hope were spoken and written to people BEFORE AD 70. So, if the hope offered was realized at AD 70, then where is a promise to anyone living after AD 70?

  1. POST FALL OF HARLOT IN AD 70. Revelation 17-20 posits the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 in Chapter 17-18. The beast (Rome) did not fall in AD 70 along with Jerusalem. The beast lasted a while longer. The beast stopped persecuting God’s people in the 300s. Thus, the beast did not fall in AD 70, but many years later. Rev.19 presents the fall of the beast. Chapter 20 presents the binding of Satan (the dragon) that gave the beast its power. But this binding was for a LONG time after AD 70. Satan is bound for 1000 years (a symbol of a LONG time). The ‘last enemy” is death (1 Cor.15:23ff), but death and hades are not cast into the lake of fire until a long time after AD 70. But death was not destroyed, hades was not destroyed, and Satan was not cast into the lake of fire in AD 70, but many years after AD 70. Therefore, the resurrection, where death is no longer present, where immortality replaces mortality, is predicted to be in the future, a long way out from AD 70 and the first century. Thus, my proposition is proven beyond doubt to be true, and the denial of my proposition is clearly false.

  1. SEEING HIM AS HE IS AND BECOMING LIKE HIM. When Jesus comes, the last enemy, death, will be destroyed and we become immortal so that death cannot affect us again (Luke 20:34,35). We will BE LIKE HIM (immortal) so that we cannot die (1 John 3:1-2). No one became LIKE HIM in AD 70, and no one was raised from the dead to become immortal and incorruptible. None of the living were “changed” at that moment to be immortal and incorruptible. John said we will become like Him because we will SEE HIM AS HE IS. No one saw Jesus “as He IS” in AD 70 and became like Him. Therefore, seeing Him as He is and becoming like Him is long AFTER AD 70, after the fall of Rome, after the 1000 years binding of Satan, after the release for a while, and at the time when Satan, death, and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. That was all future to the fall of the harlot (Jerusalem) in AD 70, and therefore my proposition is proven true.

Questions for Roy:

  1. In what way were “the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15) raised in AD 70?

  2. If all Christians became immortal (unable to die) and incorruptible (unable to be tainted and spoiled) (1 Cor.15:52-54) in AD 70, where did they go at that point?

  3. If they went to heaven, why is there no mention of large portions of the population suddenly missing?

  4. What are some scriptures that give you hope of becoming immortal and going to heaven?

Transforming Our Lowly Body

Paul said that we are already citizens of heaven (Phil.3:20). Thus, spiritually we have already been “raised up” (Eph.2:5-6). But Paul was “eagerly waiting” for the Lord Jesus “who WILL (to Paul’s future) “transform our lowly body.” Our lowly body is our “mortal” body (Rom.8:11,23). The transformation is from a lowly, mortal body to a glorious body like Jesus’. Notice it will be LIKE “His glorious body.” His body is no longer mortal (subject to death) as it had been. We will not have the same mortal body when He comes. Notice also that Paul was already in the spiritual body and spiritual temple of Christ long before AD 70 (1 Cor.12:27-28; Eph.2:19f). Paul is saying that Jesus’ personal body is glorious. He is not saying the church is presently the glorious body. He is looking forward to being transformed so that Paul’s personal body will be transformed to conform to His glorious body (Phil.3:20-21). Paul was dead before AD 70 and was not raised from that death in AD 70. Nobody was raised from death and became immortal with a glorious body like Jesus’ body in AD 70. But God cannot lie, and therefore God had plans for this to be a long time in the future. There would be “ages to come” (Eph.2:7) in which to share the gospel of grace, the fall of Jerusalem, the fall of Rome, the 1000 year binding of Satan, and a time of the release of Satan before this transformation of body would take place. Therefore, all these things demonstrate that my proposition is absolutely true. “The resurrection from mortal to immortality did not happen in the 1st century.”

If…Then #1:

  1. IF all the living and dead were to be raised and changed “in a moment”, and

  2. That moment happened in AD 70, and

  3. There is no other future moment of change to immortality,

THEN….

  1. There is no promise or hope for anyone living in a post AD 70 world.

If…Then #2:

  1. IF the “age to come” (Luke 20:35) was the age following the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and

  2. That age was to be an age of no marrying and no dying, and

  3. You contend it means an age of no spiritual dying,

THEN…

  1. There can be no spiritual dying now. Universalism!

WHAT YOU SOW…. 1 Cor.15:35-38

Paul is not writing to Israel. He is writing to the church, the spiritual Israel of God. To the spiritual body of Christ, the church, he wrote that “what YOU SOW” is not the body that will come forth from the grave. Thus, “what you sow” is not Israel, and what God raises is not going to be the church. You are going to plant your own dead body. Just as Jesus’ dead body was planted. YOU plant a body in the grave, and God will GIVE IT A BODY as He pleases (v.38). To EACH seed sown “its OWN BODY.” We do not sow dead Israel and then God raises the church. We sow a body of dust (v.47) and God raises an immortal body. We don’t plant an immortal body. We plant a mortal body and God raises EACH body that was planted in corruption and mortality to be incorruptible and immortal. EACH seed is given its OWN BODY. Thus, Paul is not talking about Israel and the AD 70 church, but EACH personal body made of dust, EACH given its own immortal body. Jesus was raised from a mortal death, and He is the “first fruit” of many that will follow His pattern of resurrection. What body will we have? It will not be made of dust, and it will not be mortal and corruptible. We will be LIKE HIM (Phil.3:20-21; 1 John 3:1-2).

It is very apparent that no one was raised or changed in AD 70. It will happen at “the last day” when the last enemy, death, is gone forever. We will not marry and cannot die when that day comes. Thus, my proposition is true! We have hope! Roy’s doctrine is hopeless!