Patrick’s growing frustration at not having a substantive response to my 2Pet.3 question is expressed in his continued personal insults (a violation of debate rules of conduct), and his deflection, again, with two questions he admits are ridiculous! He embarrasses himself by denying that Peter says he is reminding his audience of what the holy prophets said (2Pet.3:1f). Please answer the question this time!

Patrick invents his personal hermeneutic asserting a figurative passage doesn’t trump a literal text. This allows him to cherry-pick his pretext and disregard the inherent OT foundational context. There is no eschatological passage in the NT that doesn’t have an OT contextual-background! Furthermore, this futurist-hermeneutic ignores the fact that no NT writer ever states, nor infers that he is changing/re-applying the hyperbolic-metaphoric-apocalyptic language literally. This is purely assumption.

Paul said Holy Spirit teaches by comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1Cor.2:13);

Paul said his doctrine of the resurrection was what Moses and the prophets said (Acts 26:22), and his hope was the hope of Israel (Acts 28:20) and there was one hope (Eph.4:4);

Peter said all the prophets predicted the last days in which he was living (Acts 3:24).

Suggesting my emphasizing words is screaming/rampaging/throwing fits etc., is just more diversionary static to confuse the reader. Sentence highlighting (Heading Format) is not screaming!

Mat 8:11-13:

Patrick answered “No” to my question, “Were the children/sons of the kingdom cast out in the first century?” The conclusion then would be: since the children of the kingdom must be IN the kingdom in order to be cast OUT, if this is yet in our future, then Patrick’s assertion means that Christians will be cast out of the kingdom; OR, that Old Covenant Israel (Judah) remains as God’s chosen people with His covenant (the law of Moses) with them still fully binding!

Concluding an excellent explanation of Matthew 8:11ff, the summation was, “Here’s the simple answer to my serious dilemma. The Kingdom of Heaven, where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be is not here on earth, it’s in Heaven...The children of the kingdom that is going to be cast out, is the kingdom of Israel, not the church.” Right on brother, that is my point! But then Patrick says, “My opponent does not know the scriptures as well as his boast. If he did, he wouldn’t be yelling at me for HIS misunderstanding of God’s Word.” (bold mine, RR) Obviously, he missed the “IF” of my argument.

This seemingly demonstrates that someone else wrote the fine elocution on the text, and that Patrick doesn’t understand that his collaborator(s) made my point for me, i.e., the children/sons of the kingdom refers to Old Covenant Israel, i.e., those obstinately-rebellious Jews who would eventually kill Jesus, and, who would be cast out, and not Christians (the church). “IF” the children/sons of the kingdom, i.e., the Old Covenant kingdom of Israel, have not been cast out yet, then Judah remains as God’s chosen, and their covenant law remains fully in force; therefore I’m offering you the same do-over, so please don’t avoid answering this question in your 5^th Affirmative, “Were the children/sons of the kingdom (Old covenant Israel) cast out in the first century?”

James 5:7-9 and the parousia:

When I asked Patrick, “What did James really literally mean when he said, “You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand”? (Jas.5:8), he said, “In order to harmonize this scripture with all others,←[beautiful approach, RR] I believe that James is referring to the coming Judgment of the Lord on Jerusalem. I apologize that I cannot really explain this literally, because I don’t believe the Lord literally came in judgment on Jerusalem. He came in Judgment the same way He did to Babylon Isaiah 13, which was a figurative coming.”

The reader must remember that Patrick is using the term “literally” as meaning “physically,” and, by that definition, he is correct; the Lord did not come physically, He came figuratively. So, Patrick, I want you to study the Greek terminology employed by James: coming here is parousia, thus, James says that the parousia of the Lord is at hand. I’ll not waste the space here, so look up the term and study its various meanings (G3952-parousia [and G2064-erchomai]). What we are going to focus on is the parousia of the Lord, (a singular noun) of which, there was only one predicted to come. That parousia was posited in the immediate future of the apostles, and as you have correctly stated, occurred in the judgment on Jerusalem, and was figurative, not literal (physical).

The disciples asked Jesus: “Tell us when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy parousia, and of the end of the age?” (Mat.24:3). By these questions, and by Jesus’ explanation, we see His predictions of the events leading up to and signifying His parousia in the judgment on Old Covenant Jerusalem, and that judgment is what Peter refers to in 1 Peter 4:7, and that parousia is what James speaks of in James 5:7-8 as you have correctly identified; and, James continues, “Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door,” (v.9), which corresponds perfectly with Jesus’ words, “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors,” (Mat.24:33).

As Jesus is predicting the events leading up to the coming of the Son of man at the end of the age, He says, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be,” (Mat.24:29); and, He continues: “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be,” (Mat.24:37ff). What this text says demonstrates that Jesus is still speaking of the same parousia of the Son of man after verse 36, the infamous transition verse! This proves the solidarity of the Olivet Discourse beyond any debate.

The Thessalonian Epistles and The Parousia:

“For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his parousia?” (1Thess.2:19);

“To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints,” (1Thess.3:13);

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE which ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN unto the parousia of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE which ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord... But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief...And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1Th.4:14-17; 5:4,23)

Now, read the texts above/below/in-between, to make sure I didn’t misquote anything, as you notice that the parousia of the Lord, which James said was at hand, which you now understand as referring to the DOJ, is the same the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ of Paul’s Thessalonian epistles.

Now, while that’s percolating, recall my question on Facebook regarding the context of Isaiah 2:2-3 applying to the first century establishment of the kingdom/church, to which you agreed. The text I want you to read is the entirety of chapters 2-4 as this is all one block of prophecy, and the context is concerning Judah and Jerusalem (2:1); let’s notice some contextual statements therein:

• The contextual time-frame for fulfillment is “in the last days” with the predicted establishment of the church, which you agree was posited in the 1^st century (Isa.2:1-3);
• “In that day” would be a last-days day of judgment against Old Covenant Israel (Isa.2:5; 3:13-14);
• It is called “the day of the Lord,” (Isa.2:12);
• It would be a time of famine (Isa.3:1), oppression (Isa.3:5), and war (Isa.3:25; cf. Luk.21:11,12,24);
• It would be a time of judgment against Judah and Jerusalem (Isa.2:1; 3:8,14);
• This would be a day of judgment against Israel for the shedding of innocent blood (Isa.4:4; cf. Mat 23:33-38; Rev.18:24);
• It would be a time when the righteous would escape this day of the Lord (Isa.4:2-3);
• At this time the wicked, attempting to evade the wrath of the Lord, would go into the holes of the rocks and caves of the earth, “for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty” reiterated three times (Isa.2:10,19,21), categorically, proving that this cannot be an end of time event!

Pay particular attention to the phrase “for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty” as we move to 2 Thessalonians 1:

• Paul was writing to the Thessalonian Christians (TCs) (1Th.1:1);
• The TCs were being persecuted for their faith (1Th.1:4);
• The TCs were being persecuted by the Jews (cf. Acts 17:5-8,13 & 1Thess.2:14-16);
• Paul was promising the TCs relief from their persecutions because it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those troubling them (2Th.1:6-7);
• Paul was promising the TCs that their persecutors would become the persecuted (2Th.1:8-9);
• Paul said that the TCs would receive relief from their persecutions, and the persecutors would become the persecuted WHEN "the Lord Jesus would be revealed from heaven in flaming fire";
• Paul said that when the Lord would be revealed from heaven in flaming fire, He would punish the persecuting Jews with everlasting destruction, "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" which is a verbatim quote from Isaiah 2:10,19,21 (LXX).
• Paul had already told the TCs that they would escape (not be overtaken by) the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night (1Th.5:1-4), while “sudden destruction” would come upon their persecutorial Jewish countrymen (cf.1Th.2:14-16) “as travail upon a woman with child” (cf.1Th.5:3; and, “But all these are a beginning of birth pangs” Mat 24:8, KJ3);
• In order for the TCs to receive relief from their persecutions WHEN the Lord is revealed from heaven in flaming fire, then the TCs would have to be experiencing persecution WHEN the Lord is revealed from heaven in flaming fire;
• In order for the Jewish persecutors to become the persecuted WHEN the Lord is revealed from heaven in flaming fire, then the Jewish persecution of the TCs had to be ongoing WHEN the Lord is revealed from heaven;
• If Jesus was not revealed from heaven in flaming fire during the lifetime of the TCs, then not only is Paul a false prophet, Jesus is a liar also because the gospel Paul preached was a direct revelation from Jesus (Gal 1:11-12);
• In the next breath, Paul says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,” (2Th.2:1).

Therefore:

• Since the context of Paul epistles to the TCs is the imminent parousia at the day of the Lord posited during the lifetime of the TCs;
• Since the parousia of James 5:7-9 applies “to the coming Judgment of the Lord on Jerusalem,” which was a figurative coming, and not literal (physical);
• Then the parousia of the Lord in the clouds of heaven (1Th.4:14-17), and the Lord Jesus being revealed from heaven in flaming fire at the parousia day of the Lord (2Th.1:5-2:1) is contextually a figurative coming, not a literal (physical) ocularly-visible coming.
• “In order to harmonize this scripture with all others,” it must refer “to the coming Judgment of the Lord on Jerusalem.”

Space prohibits developing 2 Peter 3:4,12 which also is the parousia day of the Lord.

1 John 3:2:

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ,” (1Jn.1:1-3).

There can be no doubt that John was intimately familiar with Jesus while He was upon the Earth. John knew what Jesus looked like; he knew the sound of His voice, the smell of His clothing, His mannerisms, what He preferred to eat, etc., etc. John, however was not familiar with the nature of Jesus in His pre-incarnate state. John recorded the words of Jesus’ prayer to the Father when He said, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was,” (Joh.17:5); therefore, the idea of a post-resurrection glorified body of Jesus is a farce.

Furthermore, since John knew exactly what Jesus was like in the flesh, then, when John says “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is,” then John cannot, contextually, be saying that Jesus is going to appear literally/visibly, because:

• Jesus returned to the glory He had prior to His incarnation;
• Jesus was not ocularly visible in his pre-incarnate state;
• Since John also had first-hand knowledge of Christ’s post-resurrection body, then if he was anticipating Him to return in this imaginary ‘glorified body,’ then John would not have said, “it does not yet appear what we shall be;”
• If John intended to convey Patrick’s perception of a personal-literal-ocularly-visible appearance, then John should have written “Beloved, now are we the sons of God; because as Jesus has already appeared once personally, then likewise, we know already what we shall be like when he appears personally again.”
• The context of John’s statement here is the parousia, which was in its last hour.

“And the world IS passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour...And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His parousia...Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is,” (1Jn.2:17,18,28; 3:2).

The context of John’s statement in 3:2 is the parousia (which you admit is figurative) which was in its last hour! “In order to harmonize this scripture with all others,” then you must admit that this text also refers to the figurative coming of the Lord in the impending judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

1 Corinthians 15:

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His parousia. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power...Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep←[die], but we shall all be changed...” (1Co.15:22,23,24,51).

Note here again the context of Paul’s discourse on the resurrection is “according to the scriptures” (1Co.15:4) as he crowbar/sledgehammers the context of Hosea 6 into the beginning of chapter 15 (v.4), notice: “After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth,” (Hosea 6:2-3).

Again: “Therefore be patient, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the parousia of the Lord is at hand,” (Jas.5:7-9).

Paul and James quote from the identical OT context; both writers/texts/contexts are speaking of the parousia which you admit refers to a figurative coming in judgment against Jerusalem.

Welcome to Realized Eschatology brother!